Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:00:58] Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Energy Impact Podcast. I'm your host, Maddie Hibbs-Magruder, and I have the joy to be joined today by Vanessa Chan, who is the Chief Commercialization Officer and Director of the Office of Technology Transitions at the Department of Energy. Vanessa, welcome to the show.

Vanessa Chan [00:01:15] So great to have you.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:01:17] Terrific. So, let's bring it back to the early days, to the basics. Can you tell me a bit about where you grew up? Where did you go to school?

Vanessa Chan [00:01:25] So, I was born in St. Louis, Missouri, and actually moved to Hong Kong when I was 11 because my dad got an opportunity there, and that is where my parents were up. So, I ended up doing high school in Hong Kong through a British high school system. I only studied math, physics, and chemistry my last two years of high school. And then, ended up getting into Penn, and then moving to the US for college.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:01:53] Perfect. And what were your early thoughts then? So, it didn't sound like you had too much of the humanities or social sciences going into college. Was that something that you were looking to build on? Or, did you find your niche more in the the STEM fields?

Vanessa Chan [00:02:08] I've always been a giant nerd. I was someone who liked right answers, and that's something you get when you do a math problem versus history, where there's nuances and things like that. So growing up, I was definitely that nerdy STEM girl. And did that at Penn, and then went on to MIT to get my PhD in material science and engineering. And I just really have always loved technology and science.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:02:32] What was the most interesting spark for you for that material sciences, specifically? Do you have any early memories where that really became your niche?

Vanessa Chan [00:02:44] I've always been a maker. I like twiddling with things. And I think anytime that you're able to make things, that's really neat. But in terms of where I got into material sciences, there's kind of a funny story there. I really liked chemistry when I was growing up, so I was like, "I'll be a chemical engineer." Not realizing chemical engineering is all math, and I'm not a theoretical person; I really like concrete things.

Vanessa Chan [00:03:05] And so what happened was my lab notebooks from high school were sent over to England for grading. So when I came in, I really wanted to get placed out of physics and all that, and they're like, "Well, we don't have your lab notebooks, so we can only give you the physics credits for humanities. You'll have to retake it." I was like, "I don't want to retake it." They're like, "Well, why don't you take quantum physics your first semester of freshman year? And if you get past that, then clearly, you know physics."

Vanessa Chan [00:03:29] And I am not, as I mentioned, a deep theoretical mathematician, so I really struggled through quantum physics. And quantum physics was being offered by the Material Science and Engineering Department, and so Professor Billy Graham took pity on me, did office hours with me every week, and pulled me through that class with my bare teeth. But I realized, "Wow, material science is where I want to be." Because as a maker and someone who likes to do experiments, that's a much more hands-on major than chemical engineering. So, that's how I ended up there. It was because my lab notebooks got sent to England.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:04:02] That's so funny. Yeah, just those little coincidences can definitely steer the direction of your life. So, you went straight from undergrad to grad school then?

Vanessa Chan [00:04:11] I did. I was already doing research when I was an undergrad, and actually had a paper published. I didn't have the highest GPA in the world, but I was already doing published research. I ended up going to MIT to do a PhD on creating nanostructures out of self-assembling polymers. And so, I got my PhD in the '90s. Yes, that was a while ago. And that was when nanotechnology was really starting to get popular. So it was a really fun time to be in that space.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:04:43] Interesting. What was the main point of your final PhD thesis on nanotechnology?

Vanessa Chan [00:04:49] So basically, there's something called polymers, which are basically long chain molecules. And what I had researched were polymers where they have one side that's hydrophobic and one side that's hydrophilic. And depending on that ratio, it'll self-assemble into three-dimensional structures. And where I was really interested was where we take that self-assembly, then convert the polymers into ceramics. Polymers are much easier to process than ceramics, so I was trying to create a novel approach.

Vanessa Chan [00:05:17] So, I ended up getting a first author science paper because it was a brand new way of doing things. I got a patent, all that kind of really fun stuff. But I was a little bit frustrated around the lack of impact. I thought that my PhD had meaning. I spent five years on this. How is it really going to make a difference in the world? I had a lot of collaborators where 0.3 grams of the polymer was synthesized. I managed to do the perfect experiments, got the perfect paper images, which led to a science paper. But I was like, "How does that have an impact in the real world?"

Vanessa Chan [00:05:47] And so, I was all tasked to become a professor because when you have a science paper and all that, your path is getting paved. And a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to go with her to a McKinsey company presentation. And I was like, "I'm not interested in banking." And she's like, "No, it's consulting." I was like, "I'm not interested in consulting." And she was like, "Okay, I don't want to go by myself, and they have cocktail shrimp." And at the time, I was making $18,000 a year and I could not afford cocktail shrimp. I could tell you places where you could buy a burrito and you could eat the next half for dinner, so I was like, "Sure, I'll go."

Vanessa Chan [00:06:22] And I actually met a lot of interesting people who were really curious about the world and were trying to have an impact. And so, they convinced me to apply. I got an offer with McKinsey. I talked to my advisor, and I was like, "Let me do that for two years and see what the real world's like, and then I can be a better, more applied professor."

Vanessa Chan [00:06:40] The only problem was my very first study was a technology commercialization study, where there was a gas sensor that had been invented by a company that was measuring carbon dioxide, NOx, SOx, all these other things that was being aimed to the auto industry. And with the auto industry, it takes five years from when you get specified to when you actually get revenue. So their question is, "Where else in the world can this gas sensor be used? Where can it have impact?" And that was the question I'd been asking myself for many years, and I just got hooked.

Vanessa Chan [00:07:10] So, I ended up staying at McKinsey for 13 years, which in dog years is a long time. I was the first woman and first East Asian elected partner in the North American chemical practice.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:07:24] Wow.

Vanessa Chan [00:07:25] And I ended up co-leading the innovation practice where I spent all my time with companies investing billions of dollars in R&D, trying to figure out how to have that technology they invented in a lab actually make a real-world impact. And I did it for every single industry you can think of. And it was just amazing in terms of really learning and understanding how to take my science and technology base and amplify it into the real world.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:07:53] That's fascinating. Well, congratulations. That's a huge feat to be promoted to that level and be the first. I mean, coming from a STEM background which is typically male-dominated into consulting, which can also be male-dominated, were there any hurdles you had to overcome or any major lessons you learned going through those two experiences?

Vanessa Chan [00:08:16] No, I mean, I'm really lucky where I had a very strong mom, who was a career mom who also had been a first in many ways. And the dinner conversation we used to have was just some of the sexism and things that she had gone through. So, I think I was prepared for it. And I also was never raised to be like, "Oh, you're a girl." I was just Vanessa, the giant nerd who likes physics, right?

Vanessa Chan [00:08:42] And so, I never really thought of myself as a girl. I know that sounds weird. It wasn't until MIT had sent me a little pamphlet that was... I wish I'd still kept. It was like a little book saying, "Why Being a Woman at MIT is Not An Issue." And they had this entire book. I said, "The fact you're sending this to me, there must be a problem." And I was like, "Hang on." But it never really bothered me in many ways. It just wasn't one of the things I really thought about. And I think part of it is because of my mom. She used a lot of humor in handling some of these things.

Vanessa Chan [00:09:15] One of my favorite stories is... She was the only senior executive, and the only Asian, actually, in this company she was part of. And someone senior was flying in to join them all for dinner, and he was late. So, she was there at a table with all men, and there was a space that was between her and another guy.

Vanessa Chan [00:09:34] So, the guy who was late comes running in and was like, "Oh, I'm so glad you saved me a seat next to the chick." And then, my mom turns to the guy who was on the other side of the empty seat and was like, "I had no idea his pet name for you was chick." So, that was how I was brought up. Don't let guy undercut you or anything like that, just take it with grace and humor. And so, I never really was bothered by that.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:09:58] I love it. Those are incredibly valuable experiences. And yeah, I also have a mom who has a very similar background, very similar stories. And yeah, it's just instrumental to continue to build that.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:10:09] And for your work specifically at McKinsey, was there one project or one company that you got to work with where you felt like you had the biggest impact or you look back and it's one of the projects where you have the most pride?

Vanessa Chan [00:10:23] No, I mean, I loved everything I did there. It was amazing. And I loved it until I felt like I stopped learning. And so, my career then did a really interesting detour. My kids, who were seven and nine at the time, were in a school that was really trying to create the next entrepreneurs. And my second grader had invented this thing called Hair Hug, which was a way to prevent her hair getting stuck in her zipper when she zipped her zipper up. And she didn't like ponytails, so she had this little fabric that she would pin on the inside of her jacket, pull her hair through, zip it up, and then flip her hair out.

Vanessa Chan [00:11:00] And they had to invent something in second grade, and she did a whole pitch. It was very funny because she was like, "I'm not going to do PowerPoint like you, because that's boring. I'm going to use pen and paper, crayons." She did an entire pitch about her product and all that. Well, I was just like fascinated. I've never been entrepreneurial; I think this next generation really has to be entrepreneurial. And I'd been thinking at that point about transitioning away from McKinsey because I really didn't feel like I was learning. My north star is, "Am I learning and am I having fun? If I'm not, then why am I even doing this?"

Vanessa Chan [00:11:32] And I was negotiating with the CEO of this really large company. And during the negotiation, I was like, "I really don't want this job." Which means, if during negotiation you don't want it, it's probably not a good thing. And then, my husband had gotten a job to be the Head of Energy at Walmart at the same time. So I was like, "Okay, so he's going to be in Arkansas a bunch of the time. We have young kids and we really are hands-on parents, so how is this whole thing going to work?"

Vanessa Chan [00:12:00] I had this idea of, "What if I try to bring my inventions to market?" And I just watched that movie, Joy. Did you ever see this where the mother brings her invention of a mop to QVC? Literally, that had just played. I was like, "I think I want to be Joy."

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:12:19] Yes, I do remember that.

Vanessa Chan [00:12:20] So, I left McKinsey and decided I was going to do a Kickstarter campaign. I had a bunch of products that I had invented. I had some focus groups, and people were all obsessed with these tangle-free headphones that could convert into a necklace. And so, I got a couple patents on it. And then, just decided I would just take two years to see if I could get my self on QVC.

Vanessa Chan [00:12:43] So, I did a Kickstarter campaign, learned about social media, because that's not something I knew about. I put my two daughters on my board so they could give me advice on things, and that was really fascinating.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:12:52] I love that.

Vanessa Chan [00:12:53] And then, ended up getting a spot on the Today show to compete in America's Next Big Thing. I made it through to the finals and ended up getting a contract with QVC and selling my stuff on QVC. So, that was an amazing experience, because it really gave me a sense of what does it mean to take a risk, to try to build something from scratch. And in parallel, what I was doing was also being an angel investor. And so, that allowed me to also understand the startup community, because at McKinsey I worked with really, really big companies. And here it was like, "How do the really small companies work?" And so, as an angel investor, I got to learn it as I was going on my own journey.

Vanessa Chan [00:13:36] It was a scary transition to make. Some people had thought I lost the plot because going from a really healthy salary and all this prestige to being a one-woman show... Like, doing your own photocopying and all that stuff. I was like, "You know what? I'm going to learn a lot." And I gave myself a clock of two years. And I was like, "I'll always be a former McKinsey partner. I'll get a job somewhere. This will be a fun adventure for me to see what that's like." And then, I actually made it to QVC and I was like, "This is crazy." It actually happened.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:14:06] Oh, my goodness. That must really cement in your mind... Like, whenever you do something really challenging or, let's say you commit yourself to a longer-term goal like that, it must really cement in your mind that there's really nothing that you can't accomplish.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:14:17] So yeah, I want to pivot a bit more now into what you're currently doing. What was the next stage after that? And then, how did you find energy, specifically?

Vanessa Chan [00:14:25] This is a very funny story. My thing in between that was, as I was doing my startup and got onto QVC, I had a mentor from Penn reach out to me who was like, "Hey, we're looking for a professor of practice in innovation and entrepreneurship. You led innovation at McKinsey; you are an entrepreneur. Would you consider coming back and teaching?"

Vanessa Chan [00:14:47] And I was like, "That's actually kind of neat." Because a professor of practice is a full-time job, but you're teaching two classes. And so, I was given Intro to Entrepreneurship, an additional section of it. It was the most popular class and they needed another teacher, so there's a curriculum for that. Then, they gave me Senior Design from the Science Department. And I had this whole entire light bulb go off in my head. I was like, "All the time I was at McKinsey, the issue was trying to retrain engineers who had PhDs like me, or even just undergrad degrees who are not taught about the real world." Like, we're not taught to go talk to people about our work.

Vanessa Chan [00:15:21] In fact, I would say PhD, in some ways is anti-commercialization, because you're told, "Don't talk to people about your research. You don't want to get scooped, and you want to be publishing first." Your final thing is to defend your PhD, so when you're there, you have to tell them why you're so great. And if you're a defensive, non-communicative entrepreneur, that is never going to work.

Vanessa Chan [00:15:40] And so, what I did was I ended up spending a lot of time teaching things like supply chains, having my students actually go talk to the real world about their research they were doing for their project, and understanding what could this be applied for? Teaching them how to speak up, work in teams. All the things you never get formal training on in engineering schools.

Vanessa Chan [00:15:58] And what was amazing is that in the senior design competition we have every year, materials science had never placed. The first year I taught, we came in second place. The second year I taught, we came in first and third, which was a huge disruption because normally mechanical engineering sweeps it all. And third year was COVID. And so, it was just really phenomenal seeing how I could try to really change the engineering curriculum to a way where our students actually will have a higher chance of having impact in terms of commercialization.

Vanessa Chan [00:16:28] And then, I got a phone call about the November of 2020... Actually, an email saying, "The Biden-Harris administration is interested in you." And I didn't know for what. So, I sent my resume. And it was a little bit weird because it during COVID, so it was a lot like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, where like, "Okay, we like your resume. When are you available the next two weeks to chat?" Then they send you another thing saying, "Please join these three Zoom meetings." And there's no background of what I'm interviewing for or anything like that.

Vanessa Chan [00:16:58] So, I turn up to the first Zoom meeting. I'm like, "Hi." And they're like, "Hey, we want to interview you for Chief Commercialization Officer and so forth." And I was like, "Okay." It was the Department of Energy. Like, I didn't even know it was the Department of Energy.

Vanessa Chan [00:17:10] And so during the interview process, I was like, "This is great, but you know that I don't do anything in energy." Because my husband was in energy, and so the last thing I want to do was work in his space, like separation of church and state. But the funny thing was that he had always wanted to work for Department of Energy. So, we had done our nanny taxes. Like, everything has always been above board because he was like, "One day I'm going to serve in government."

Vanessa Chan [00:17:34] And so, when I got that phone call, he was laughing because Walmart's the largest user of energy in the US, except for the federal government. And he was like, "Of course, they're going to call my wife." And I wasn't sure. And I'm also someone who moves really fast and likes to innovate and really have an impact. And so, I'm like, "I'm don't think I'm wired for bureaucracy and federal government." So, even during the interview process, I'm like, "I'm not sure this is the right fit for me because I'm someone who will disrupt and do things differently, and I'm just not a bureaucrat."

Vanessa Chan [00:18:05] And during the process, they're like, "Look, 90% is really your vision of what you're thinking needs to happen. The other 10% are things that we're going to need, but we really mean it." And I was like, "Really? Are you sure?" And so, I talked to some mentors who were like, "It's an honor to be asked by the President to do this, and so you should do. And worst case scenario, just leave after you're out of impact."

Vanessa Chan [00:18:27] I'm now three-and-a-half years in, because I report to Secretary Granholm, who's the best boss ever. And we are having so much impact and moving so fast. I've never been this entrepreneurial before, ever. And it's been amazing. And because I've been steeped in commercialization for 20-something years, applying it to energy or anywhere else, it's the same thing, because it's all PhD-trained engineers who need to really understand how to get to demonstration and deployment. And so, I'm like a kid in a candy store right now, in terms of just my joy of this job.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:18:58] I love it. That's so fascinating, and honestly so reassuring to hear. Because, yeah, I think that there's a big gap. Like, everybody describes the ability to take something from R&D to commercialization. There's definitely a role for the government to be playing. What were some of your early initiatives you had started several years ago, and how have those initiatives shifted over time?

Vanessa Chan [00:19:21] Great question. So, the first thing I did was language. I know that may sound silly from someone who was never in the humanities, in terms of deep in it, but language really matters. And so for example, a lot of people say exactly what you say when you do R&D and then commercialization, and that's the wrong way to think about it. Because the challenge is sometimes, or oftentimes, that you do R&D in the labs and then you throw it over to business and say, "I'm done. Now you go and you commercialize it." And it just doesn't work that way.

Vanessa Chan [00:19:48] Commercialization is a continuum where you start with research development, move to demonstration, move to deployment. So, it's the RDD&D continuum. And the reason why that's really important is you need market input when you're doing research, even, if you're really going to get it out to full-scale deployment. And so, commercialization to me is the RDD&D continuum. And when you have commercial deployment is when you have a sustainable economic business model where the real world is willing to pay for whatever it is that you've invented. And so, that was the very first thing I wanted to do, make sure we're all on the same page of what does commercialization mean.

Vanessa Chan [00:20:23] The second thing is, during the time that I was there in the first year, one huge thing happened that really transformed my ability to make a big difference, and that was the passage of BIL, IRA, and CHIPS and Science Act. Because across those, I would say there's about $1 trillion that is aiming towards clean energy. And so, the question and the thing I've always been focused on, is that in the end, to drive to full-scale deployment, there's not one single organization or entity that can do it. It really is an entire ecosystem that has to do it.

Vanessa Chan [00:20:56] And yes, $1 trillion is a lot, but it's nothing compared to the... Some count $23 trillion, some people count $175 trillion the private sector has. So the question becomes, "How do we take the $1 trillion we have to buy down risks to the point where the private sector can take over and they have a sustainable economic business model to be able to drive these clean energy technologies?"

Vanessa Chan [00:21:19] So when BIL and the IRA came out, what happened was DOE really changed its mission space in many ways to move beyond R&D and the amazing thing going in the 70 National Labs to really thinking about how do we get to full-scale commercial deployment? So now, the entire RDD&D continuum was activated, and we now had money against the last two parts of demonstration and deployment in a way that we had never had.

Vanessa Chan [00:21:46] And so, that allowed me to then say, "Okay, if that's the case, how do we actually activate the private sector so that they're leading, but they are enabled by us?" And there's been twice that I'm really inspired by the nation in terms of ways we've been able to do that.

Vanessa Chan [00:22:00] One was when Moore's Law was invented by Gordon Moore, the founder of Intel, where he said, "We have to double the number of transistors on a chip every two years in order to get to where we need to in the consumer electronics industry." And Sematech was created, which is a government consortium which created a road map for the CMOS process for what every single player in the ecosystem had to do to realize Moore's Law. And it worked beautifully. Like, absolutely beautifully.

Vanessa Chan [00:22:30] And the second time was with the Manhattan Project, when we were able to coalesce together as a nation to do something we didn't think we could do as quickly as we did. So my question was, how do I take the Manhattan Project, add it to Sematech, and aim it to clean energy so we can get the entire ecosystem on board?

Vanessa Chan [00:22:48] And so, we created an effort called Pathways to Commercial Liftoff, which is quarterbacked by my team. And we interacted with all parts of DOE to pull together commercialization road maps of what it would actually take to bring these different clean energies to market. And we started with four of them: hydrogen, Long Duration Energy Storage, carbon management, and nuclear, because there was a lot of money that was going out the door pretty quickly in those four. And we worked across the department, interviewed tons of people in the private sector.

Vanessa Chan [00:23:25] And we started this in September of 2022. And I'm telling you, we moved fast. We got them through White House approval and on a website called liftoff.energy.gov March of 2023. So, six months for four big topics, including all the research and the work and getting private sector engagement on it and White House approval.

Vanessa Chan [00:23:48] And through it, we have now laid out what are the different barriers that are preventing these technologies from making it to full-scale deployment? Cost is really important. Things like that, like job and workforces permitting and siting. And every one of the technologies has something a little bit different to it, just like our kids. And the really cool thing about it is now we are getting the entire ecosystem together.

Vanessa Chan [00:24:12] And how that then played out was, for example, the Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations, who quarterbacked the Hydrogen Liftoff Report together with the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology Office. The three of us were really the lead ones for that single report. They used that money to inform the funding opportunity announcements on hydrogen hubs. So, we released it in advance of it so that people knew this is what you need to solve. And so coming out of it, $7 billion was awarded to seven hydrogen hubs, and it was anchored on the Liftoff Reports in terms of what needs to happen.

Vanessa Chan [00:24:45] And during the time when we did this, we also realized there's an issue with the chicken and the egg, where the hydrogen won't work unless people are willing to buy it, but people don't want to do demand offtake agreements until they know they have a guaranteed price. But the supply chain doesn't show what the price is going to be yet because they haven't built themselves up yet.

Vanessa Chan [00:25:04] So, we reserved a billion dollars of that to actually do the first ever federal demand-side activation, where that billion is now going to be helping the hydrogen hubs with their contract agreements on the backside to a guaranteed price, so that in the end, the people who are going to use the hydrogen are not scared to do it so we actually can make this stuff happen, and we get to a tipping point where you can start to drive the costs down. So, that's another thing that you know has been really important, is getting the ecosystem aligned.

Vanessa Chan [00:25:33] And now fast forward, we've done three waves of these. There are a dozen Liftoff Reports. All of them are talking about the pathways that every single technology needs to go through in order to make it to full-scale deployment.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:25:44] Incredible. Yeah, that's in such a short period of time. It feels almost unheard of. Did that fall into the domain... Because I know you have two different roles, currently, at the Department of Energy. Was that in the commercialization role or the Office of Technology Transitions role? And then, how did those roles interplay together?

Vanessa Chan [00:26:05] Great question. So, as Chief Commercialization Officer, the way I like to think it is how do I steward commercialization across the department? As the Director of the Office of Technology Transitions, I have money that's actually appropriated to me from Congress in order to do my own programs.

Vanessa Chan [00:26:20] The two have interplay because my program dollars that I get from Congress absolutely are to help steward commercialization, but there I'm doing more things like creating programs around Energy I-Corps, which is a training program that teaches researchers how to start their own companies and how their technology needs to be pushed towards commercialization.

Vanessa Chan [00:26:42] We also have something called the Technology Commercialization Fund that we administer here at OTT. That is a funding bridge for technologies that are in between development and demonstration, where we're trying to help them move to the next stage. So, that's what I would say my director of OTT hat is on, where Chief Commercialization Officer is much more around orchestration and trying to drive commercialization at large, with the DOE and for the nation.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:27:11] Terrific. Yeah, they seem like they would play so well together, so I think it is incredibly helpful to have one person manning both ships. And looking back over the last four years now, or almost four years...

Vanessa Chan [00:27:26] Not yet four. Not yet four.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:27:26] Not yet four.

Vanessa Chan [00:27:26] I'm excited to get a lot of stuff done.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:27:28] Of course. What would be one thing that you've learned and one thing that you've gotten to teach in these positions?

Vanessa Chan [00:27:37] I think one thing I learned was that... Maybe it's reinforcing something I've always known. To move fast, it's really important to find the right people who also want to move fast with you. And I am really impressed with the folks they've brought into this administration because we are really focused on trying to get work done. And especially the Department of Energy.

Vanessa Chan [00:28:01] What's interesting is a lot of my peers are women. I've never worked with this many women in my entire life, and it's been amazing. And it's interesting because we're a very technology and science-based organization. And the majority of the direct reports going into the Secretary are actually women, so that's been really interesting moving in that kind of environment. Because as you pointed out before, my track record in terms of organization, the place I've been has been much more male-dominated. So. Maybe that's also why I've been having so much fun around this.

Vanessa Chan [00:28:32] And in terms of teaching, I think it's really driving change around commercialization, and teaching people how to get stuff out of labs. One thing I'm super proud of is going back to language and just how to think about things. Too often, we focus on what I call technology push, where as PhD scientists, we are focused on a research area and a topic. Like, my research group that I was a part of only worked on block copolymers. This was the technology with the hydrophilic and hydrophobic polymers I was talking about. And so, we only thought about that. We never asked our question about what's the problem we're trying to solve, and be technology agnostic.

Vanessa Chan [00:29:14] And so as a result, people really focus on technology stage gates. So, everyone knows about technology readiness levels, which was invented by NASA to shoot rockets to the moon. And that was the nomenclature and the thinking that was at the Department of Energy, and quite frankly, across the federal government before I joined. It was invented by NASA to launch rockets to the moon, and NASA didn't really care about the cost of the rocket, permitting and siting, and some of the other things beyond technology. As long as that technology worked at TRL 9, and therefore it's good to go.

Vanessa Chan [00:29:47] But you could be at TRL 9 where the stuff works, but no one wants to pay more for anything. You may not have the supply chain for it. And so, we created something called Adoption Readiness Levels here at OTT, which is a compliment to TRLs. And it's teaching people all of the different things besides technology that you have to overcome in order for you to get to full-scale deployment. And it is now a tool you can download online, and it has taken off like wildfire.

Vanessa Chan [00:30:13] We're using it at DOE to manage the risk portfolio for the new Undersecretary of Infrastructure, who focuses on demonstration and deployment. NSF has put it into their TIP Directorate. VCs now have found it and are asking their companies to actually assess the ARLs, because a lot of the ways in which investments are made are based on the risks besides technology that have to be managed. And so, it's just been amazing to see something like that just take off like wildfire. And it's a really simple tool to use. You can find it on our OTT website under Adoption Readiness Levels. And it's a language to teach, especially scientists and engineers, the other things you have to worry about.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:30:55] Oh, that's so important. Yeah. We talk a lot, at my job, essentially, of making sure that you're answering the right questions and addressing the right challenges versus... It is very common, especially more in the SaaS or software startup world to be like, "I've created this cool thing that will solve this very niche problem," but then you have no customers for it except for a very few. So, I think that's incredible that you're bringing those learnings to even more massive and potentially world-changing projects, such as infrastructure and energy and hydrogen. I think it's perfect.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:31:27] But let's take a look forward into the future. What are you most excited about at your current role?

Vanessa Chan [00:31:35] Oh, man. I will tell you that it's been amazing. When I started, there were only 17 people at OTT. Now, we're up to almost 60 people. And just really building an organization from scratch in terms of the kinds of things that we're doing and the things that we've been trying to scale out has been really great. That has just been so exciting. And now, we're at a point where there are career ladders for all of our folks. It's just neat to see an organization starting to scale.

Vanessa Chan [00:32:10] We also call ourselves the otters, because of OTT. And yesterday was National Otter Day, so we had a chance to celebrate that with everybody. And otters are hands-on, friendly, collaborative animals, so it really is a perfect spirit animal for us. And just really seeing the way that we've been collaborating across our 17 National Labs, across DOE, outside of DOE to really bring people together to start to implement these things is where I personally am most excited. It's great to create these frameworks, do analysis and all that, but if people aren't using it... Kind of going back to my PhD, then what's the point of it if you actually can't see how it gets to where you need it to get to.

Vanessa Chan [00:32:53] What's super exciting for me is I've been on conference and things where people are chasing me and quoting Liftoff Reports. There's one woman who was like, "Oh my gosh, I love the Cement Liftoff Report because I didn't have a framework to explain to people what it is we're trying to do and why. And now that we have this, I'm literally..." And she's like quoting things to me about what they're doing.

Vanessa Chan [00:33:13] And so, I think it's really great. It's like if you were in grad school and you threw a party and you got invited to your own party by somebody else, you know you're doing something great. I've had people say, "Hey, have you heard about the Liftoff Reports?" I was like, "Oh, people are talking about the babies." So, I think that's what's exciting, is just the traction that we're getting with the stuff we're doing.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:33:32] Incredible. Yeah, that sounds incredibly exciting, almost to be quoted yourself in front of somebody. That must be incredibly gratifying and rewarding to see the impact that you've had.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:33:43] For you personally, has energy really caught your attention and you think you'll stay in this sector for a while? Or, are there any other sectors where you think that you could apply these same commercialization learnings to?

Vanessa Chan [00:33:57] So, I'm actually technology and sector agnostic. Really, I think what my calling is, is how do I help scientists and engineers have more impact? Obviously, energy is critical because we have a crisis right now that we have to solve for climate change and other things like that, but I think the reason why I've been able to have the impact I've had even though I haven't really spent that much time in energy before I came to this role is because the things I'm doing are just endemic to the way we do research and development and moving to demonstration and deployment. So really, my goal is figuring out how do I change that earlier in people's careers so that as they're doing their work, they can be thinking about these things?

Vanessa Chan [00:34:41] Had I known what I know now, I think I would have done my PhD a little bit differently. I would have thought earlier on around, "What is it that this thing could be used for?" And spent a little bit more time in the real world to really think about these things.

Vanessa Chan [00:34:53] And it's not that I'm at all bashing PhDs. Don't get me wrong; that's not what I want people to think. I think it's really important, the scientific rigor and things that you learn in a PhD. But it's more if you could take those amazing capabilities that you've learned and then get a little bit of a sprinkle of the real world into it, that is when we're just going to have explosive impact. So, that's really what my next calling is, to do what I do wherever I can have the biggest impact on scientists and engineers.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:35:23] Incredible. Yeah, that's a great throughline for your career, but also for the world writ large. We definitely need a lot more of that. Are there any final thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with?

Vanessa Chan [00:35:33] Yeah, I want to tell you that sometimes change is hard to do and you can be very uncomfortable with things. And I will tell you when I left McKinsey to do this startup, it was really kind of crazy. And I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only presidential appointees who's been on QVC. You don't know where the world's going to take you, and I think really just not being afraid of what people think of you or being afraid of being lesser than is not something you should really worry about. Because I don't think anyone would have looked at me at that point and been like, "Oh, she's going to be tapped to have this amazing influence on the US commercialization." My goal was not be here. Like, it never was on my vision board. And so, I think that's one important thing.

Vanessa Chan [00:36:22] And the second thing I also want to share is how I actually got into this role, which I think is really important for listeners, especially working parents. Because I think too often we say, "No."

Vanessa Chan [00:36:33] The way I got into this role is... When I was teaching at Penn, I think around 2017, 2018... I got a call from a former client of mine who was like, "Hey, DOE's looking at creating a foundation that's focused on commercialization. And I told them if you want to talk about commercialization, there's one person you have to talk to, it's Vanessa."

Vanessa Chan [00:36:53] And so, I got a phone call from this person, and she asked me if I could join a workshop in DC. And at the time, my husband was commuting to Arkansas. So, Monday through Thursday he wasn't here. And we have young kids. And I was like, "I can't come for the whole thing, but I can come for part of it." And I had someone cover one of my classes so I could go do it.

Vanessa Chan [00:37:15] When I was there, I was pretty vocal and passionate about commercialization, as you can hear. And that one workshop and the woman who led it, she's the one who put my name in the hat many years later.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:37:24] Wow.

Vanessa Chan [00:37:24] And I only met her through that workshop. And literally that partial "yes" is why I'm in this seat now. Had I said, "No," I would not have been on anyone's radar screen. And so, that's the other thing I would say. If there's an opportunity to expose yourself to a new ecosystem, to learn something about it, do it. And even if you can't do the full yes, do a partial yes, because you don't know where it's going to take you. This partial yes is why I'm here now, so it's pretty amazing.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:37:54] Another question that I have for you is what are some of the innovative things that OTT has done at the Department of Energy to speed up commercialization?

Vanessa Chan [00:38:04] One of the things that I'm really passionate about is that there's a need to have diversity in the types of folks that are working with us. So, I talk about private sector-led, government-enabled. It's really important that we look in the entire ecosystem.

Vanessa Chan [00:38:19] And one of the challenges with federal money is that the normal way to have the money come out the door is something called Funding Opportunity Announcements. And they're these hundred something page guidelines, and you have to do this massive application. And if you're like a smaller organization or you've never gone through this before, it's actually prohibitive for you to go after it.

Vanessa Chan [00:38:42] And so, there are a couple of things we've been doing here at OTT to really innovate across DOE how we get money out the door. One is prizes. Where with prizes, there's a lot more flexibility around what's required to actually apply for a prize. And we've done things where we have tiered prizes, where a prize is awarded for work that you've already done.

Vanessa Chan [00:39:03] So, if you've already done the work and we award it for you, how do we get more work done? Well, we did a tiered prize for the invention, where we have you come in and do a very small thing for the first phase, then you get awarded money and then you compete for the next phase, which is a bigger amount.

Vanessa Chan [00:39:18] And then, we now invented another thing where you're going from prize to FOA. So, you're doing your prizes and then you can then negotiate for a Funding Opportunity Announcement. So, that's been transformative because we see a lot of smaller organizations and folks that have been unable to interact or receive federal money actually find a way to now do it.

Vanessa Chan [00:39:39] And then, the other thing I've been excited about is something called vouchers. And this is one where, oftentimes, trying to find the right person to help you with something can be hard. So if you're planning a wedding, you can go to Yelp and figure out who's a great florist. If you need to do economic analysis or you need to do community engagement, there's no Yelp for that.

Vanessa Chan [00:40:00] And so, the thing that is great is we've now created a mechanism where we have people who can provide technical support, and includes our 17 National Labs. And then, if you're an organization that needs help, you can be like, "I have this issue where I don't know how to do this." We then take a look at our roster and say, "Is there someone that actually can help you?" And then, we will then send money, up to $250,000, to the third-party provider, and then you just call the third-party provider to get support. You don't have to sit there and negotiate; you don't have to do anything. It's just so easy.

Vanessa Chan [00:40:35] And so through that, we have seen an astronomical new number of people who are both providing support and those who are getting the support. And it's really helping problems which are not at the billion dollar hydrogen hub size, but at a smaller size, but still so critical to get the ecosystem activated.

Vanessa Chan [00:40:55] And then, the third thing is we created a foundation, Foundation for Energy Security and Innovation, FESI. It was authorized in the CHIPS and Science Act. And the goal of the foundation is to actually support commercialization of clean energy technologies.

Vanessa Chan [00:41:09] So, what we did there was we were given the opportunity to appoint a board. And so, we appointed a board of 13 folks last month. They're building a new independent 501(c)(3). Myself, the Secretary, and two of the undersecretaries are ex-officio board members. OTT is an official liaison per statute to FESI. And, super excited about that as an innovative mechanism as well.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:41:38] Interesting. Yeah, I definitely want to double click on the getting the money out the door and making impactful investments. A lot of our listeners are actually from the clean energy investment sector. So, what kind of advice or thoughts do you have on how those financial investors should be thinking through the clean energy transition and capitalizing on both new technologies, but also making sure that they have a return?

Vanessa Chan [00:42:03] So, what I will tell you is that the Clean Energy Investment Committee reminds me a little bit of Squid Games right now, where everyone is backed up on that bridge. Like, "You go first. "No, you go first. "Like, I will go fifth. I'm first in line to be fifth or sixth, but I am absolutely not going first." They're all kind of backed up right there. And so, I think what's been helpful is through BIL and IRA and things like that, we're providing the stepping stones across the bridge so it's less scary to try to go across. But we need these financiers and others to step into this. We need the ecosystem to work together. And that's where the Pathways to Commercial Liftoff and the ARLs that we've created, the Adoption Readiness Levels, are really helpful because it's our way of articulating risk.

Vanessa Chan [00:42:46] In the end, when you're doing finances, it's exactly what you're saying. The investment is based on, "What returns do I think I'm going to get?" The returns are based on, "What risks do I have to overcome in order to get there?" And so right now, we have created a language; we provide a transparency around the risks. And I think this is a perfect time with BIL, IRA, CHIPS, with these new Pathways to Commercial Liftoff, Adoptions Readiness Levels, to really understand risk in a way where it's much more clear. But I think it requires people to take gambles in ways they haven't been comfortable before.

Vanessa Chan [00:43:24] And I think we all have to do it. Because if we all go in together, we can get to that tipping point faster. And if we don't move now, there's an issue. The thing that's really neat about the Liftoff Reports is every single report has its own little schtick. And there are things right now which actually have been proven technologically and actually have an ROI, but people aren't moving on them.

Vanessa Chan [00:43:46] An example of this one is on grid. We actually have some innovative grid technologies which have been deployed and shown that they work. Dynamic line rating, advanced reconductoring. And there's actually a business case for them where if we were able to move these things, it's 5% of the investment as opposed to what it would cost to build them in-grid. And we can actually increase the load that the grid can support by 30%. 30%.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:44:12] Wow.

Vanessa Chan [00:44:12] That's huge. But people aren't moving on it because they're risk averse, and this is like new technology, even though it's proven. So, I think it's really trying to get folks to go against their slow-moving pace right now, which I think electricity and energy has been more traditionally, and just go. I mean, we just don't have time right now. We need, for example, 5 to 10 orders of Gen III+ nuclear reactors in the books. And we need people to get that going, and we can't wait. It's not like if we wait, it'll get better; it's just going to keep getting worse and then we have to catch up. So, I think that's really my message. Don't sit; move.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:44:54] Financing is a huge part of that, a huge part of that. Because yeah, startups already can be kind of a caustic ecosystem in and of themselves. Like, trying to go through money fairly quickly and grow and scale. But for startups out there, are there any in particular that you've seen... Maybe some of these grid adaptation technologies or other startups that are critical for the energy transition?

Vanessa Chan [00:45:18] I mean, I think it's all critical. It's funny when people are like, "Who's your favorite?" It's like asking, "Who's your favorite child?" We love them all. And actually, we need them all. I mean, that's the other thing. It's not like one of these things is going to save the energy transition. Every single one of them plays a role. Like, literally every single one of them. And so, I really don't have a favorite.

Vanessa Chan [00:45:39] But I will say, in terms of startups, I really appreciate people who are scrappy and are just going as fast as they can and not letting themselves be limited by anything. And I just have to share... One of my favorite startups is Kale Industries. And the reason why I'm really excited about them is they are a group of University of Rochester students who had invented a cement which was low-carbon, using recycled glass. And so, we had pioneered a program called Energy Technology University Prize, EnergyTech UP. And the reason why we wanted to do this was to inspire students to come up with business plans which we could then try to scale.

Vanessa Chan [00:46:27] And so, they applied to our first round of EnergyTech UP a few years ago. They got $25,000 as a bonus prize from Fossil Energy and Carbon Management, FECM, one of our sister offices. And they used that money to create a prototype of a sidewalk in Rochester. And then through that prototype, they were able to get a SBIR Phase II grant from the EPA. And then, started actually in making this, and so far have made 50 tons.

Vanessa Chan [00:46:59] We then put them into one of our incubators, and they were then nominated by that incubator to compete in another OTT program, Energy Program for Innovation Clusters, where we actually fund startups and accelerators and incubators across the nation. We have 50 incubators funded. And they were able to nominate a startup to actually pitch for a competition.

Vanessa Chan [00:47:21] So, they won the $100,000 grand prize on that pitch event and used that money to buy a cement mixer, because the stuff that they have right now is not yet certified, so people don't want to have their cement mixer ruined. They bought a cement mixer and made this amazing yellow, and actually have OTT's logo on it.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:47:39] Very cool.

Vanessa Chan [00:47:42] And like I said, they've manufactured 50 tons of concrete already. And so, this to me is just an incredible example of 20-something year olds. Many people would be like, "You're not going to be able to do this." And they like, didn't care. And they're like, "We got it. We're going to do it." And they just kept going, going, going.

Vanessa Chan [00:47:58] And so, I just use that as an example of people who don't care what others think, don't care that they're young, and they're just going to get it done. So, that's really, I think, exciting.

Vanessa Chan [00:48:08] But for those of you who are startups, please go to our Energy Program for Innovation Clusters, EPIC, webpage and take a look at the 50 incubators and accelerators that we're funding across the nation. Because one of the most important things for startups... And not even just the money... It's the entrepreneurial know-how. And we know that startups that actually are supported by incubators and accelerators have a much higher likelihood of success than those that aren't. And so, that's why EPIC is such an important program. It's one of the few programs across the nation in our federal agencies that actually can support incubators and accelerators and be tech agnostic. And so, I'm really excited about that.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:48:54] What is that missing link that you find in an incubator, but maybe not just in a general marketplace, that would improve likelihood of success for a startup?

Vanessa Chan [00:49:04] Mentorship. That is so important, right? Like, all the incubators and accelerators have mentors who have been through this before and are not reinventing the wheel. And so, as an angel investor, I've mentioned a lot of startups. And you just see pattern recognition when you get to be a certain age. You're like, "Oh, that reminds me of this. And by the way, I know this person." Like, the older you are, the bigger your Rolodex gets. And so, I can then connect you to people. So, it's invaluable. It's the connections, it's the know-how, and it's the mentoring that really sets startups apart.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:49:37] Incredible. Do you have any recent experiences being a mentor or getting to give back, maybe as an angel investor or through other ways?

Vanessa Chan [00:49:46] When I joined the Biden administration, I had to step down from everything, including my daughter's school board. But I still mentor people through the OTT programs. And one thing I tell all my startups, every single one of them, is that the most important thing is listening. We are born with two ears, two eyes, and one mouth, and you should use them in that ratio.

Vanessa Chan [00:50:11] And the reason why is that, too often, founders have been living and sleeping this startup, and it's literally their baby. I mean, it is their baby. And they have made all kinds of personal sacrifices for this to work. And so, when people start asking them questions, their gut reaction is to be defensive about their baby, right? And it's like, "My baby's amazing." Like, "Well, what do you think about this?"

Vanessa Chan [00:50:35] I think it's really important for people to listen and ask the question why we're asking it. So, really good entrepreneurs are one when, if you meet someone like myself who's been through the block a bit, and I'm asking you questions, you should be asking me why I'm asking those questions. "Why are you asking that?" Instead of trying to answer me right away and show that you're smart, like, "Why is that important to you?" And then, you really get into it. I think that's the most important thing, talk to as many people as you can. But when you talk to them, don't talk at them, understand why they are asking what they're asking.

Maddie Hibbs-Magruder [00:51:08] Incredible, I love it. What an encouraging note to leave the listeners with. Vanessa, thank you so much for your time. This was a great conversation.

Vanessa Chan [00:51:16] Thank you.